Transfer between 2/8 & 1/8 Royal Warwickshire Battalions - July 1916

Units/Formations
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Hi Everybody, I have just joined the group and am looking forward to expanding my knowledge in all sorts of areas.

My first enquiry is as much about the reliability of records as about the Battalions of the RWR themselves.

I am researching a RWR soldier from my home village (in Wiltshire, though that’s another story!) who was missing, presumed KIA, at the end of August 1916. He is commemorated on the Loos Memorial, because he was from the 2/8 RWR, and they were in the field in the relevant sector for that Memorial at the time he was posted missing. I am trying to find out as much as I can about what he would have been up to between his arrival in France in mid-July 1916 and his death at the end of August. Being OR, he obviously isn’t going to get specific mention in the Battalion War Diaries.

HOWEVER - having found a copy of what remains of his service record via FindMyPast, I am wondering if his allocation to 2/8 RWR at the time of death and his commemoration on the Loos memorial are in fact likely to be correct. 2/8 appears to be the Battalion to which he was posted on enlistment (December 1915) and mobilization (March 1916), but the record indicates he was transferred to 1/8 RWR “in the field” within 10 days of arriving in France . Army Form B.103 records his embarkation (10/7, Southampton), disembarkation (11/7, Rouen), then proceeded to transfer “in the field” to 1/8 RWR on 20/7, the card also showing, as a separate entry, “Joined Unit” on 21/7. The next entry is his being posted MIA on 27/8.

The covering letter (from 1995) to this Form, from the Departmental Record Officer to the casualty’s nearest living relative, states confidently that he was transferred back to 2/8 RWR on an unspecified date - but there is no mention of this on the B.103.

As a general point, it seems unlikely to me that the individual OR would have been transferred on 20-21 July to a unit in desperate need of reinforcement, but then returned almost immediately to his “home” Battalion - particularly when the two Battalions were in quite different parts of the Western Front. Further, on the date on which he was posted MIA, and which is his assumed date of death - 27/8/1916 - the War Diary records that 2/8 RWR were taking part in a Sunday church parade, and records no casualties - their last casualties having been suffered several days earlier. On the other hand, on 27/8/1916, 1/8 RWR were suffering an appalling day of loss much further south, with some 72 OR recorded as missing on that day.

Was the Record Officer in 1995 simply making an assumption about the soldier’s return to his unit, based on the fact that the CWGC record him as being with 2/8 and including his name on the Loos memorial (the CWGC also being under a similar misapprehension, i.e. taking his being with his “home” unit at the time of death as read)?

I guess we will never really know, but is it more plausible that the casualty was MIA with 1/8 RWR, to whom he had been transferred and there being no record of his return? Or that he had been sent by 1/8 RWR back up the Front to 2/8 RWR within a few weeks, but that the date of this re-transfer did not find its way into the official record?

I am sure this won’t be the first enquiry of this nature, and I should be grateful for anyone’s thoughts.

Many thanks!

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Maybe you could give us his name and number. Just so others can double check for anything in the record you might have overlooked. Also might it be worth checking the ICRC POW records for any cards. I have a 2/Essex soldier KIA 21/4/1918 who’s on the Loos Memorial. They were at Riez du Vinage on that date over 10 miles to the NW

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Thanks - it’s Private James Bright 306648 (former 4920). There is (was) anecdotal evidence (village lore) that he was killed near Thiepval, which would be consistent with the location of 1/8 RWR - but I am unsure where/how long ago that story originated. It certainly goes back beyond 2008, and could have been from the early 1990s, when local casualty information was being collected from the villagers who had been around at the time (with all the memory risks that this would have carried). But it clearly is not consistent with Private Bright having been KIA with the 2/8 RWR, who were a long way away on 27/8/1916 - some 45 miles to the north (as the crow flies).

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Have you sen this card Prisoners of the First World War | International Committee of the Red Cross - Details about the person

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Thank you - no, I had not seen that!

If I am reading it correctly (please excuse my unfamiliarity with the type of record), an enquiry as to his whereabouts was sent to the Red X in late 1916 (am I right in thinking the 16 December date is the date of receipt of the enquiry?), with a negative return being given on 9 January? Presumably the enquiry was sent by Miss Keightley - I don’t know if the Bern address has/had any particular significance (nothing shows in a quick Google search). Would she have been a British volunteer at/for the Red X, making enquiries on behalf of relatives back home?

Apologies for all the questions!

Interesting that a contemporaneous enquiry specifically references Thiepval and 1/8 Bn, as well as Pvt Bright’s original service number.

James

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I think that’s about right. Négatif envoyé 18.12.16: This translates to “Negative [reply] sent 18/12/16.” This date (18 December 1916) is when the Red Cross dispatched their reply indicating that they had no record of him being held as a living prisoner of war in German camps. Miss Keightley was the contact point in Berne through which the enquiry was sent and to whom the Red Cross sent their official notification (Négatif envoyé).

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Looks like he went from the 3/8th to the 2/8th Battalion, then transferred to the 1/8th on entering the France theatre. If so, the CWGC entry attributing him to the 2/8th could be a clerical error and should perhaps read 1/8th. If that is confirmed, it would also be worth investigating whether he should be commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial instead of the Loos Memorial.

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I have investigated an identical case with the 1/4th and 2/4th Lincolnshire Regiment - a man with records in both units although the war diaries mean he had to belong to one as the other were out of the line on the day he was missing presumed dead. Shortly before the fateful day, the 2/4th diary showed an officer, 2 NCOs and one platoon were separated for allocation for units at the front. I assumed this was the move but it wasn’t recorded. He’s on Thiepval rather than Arras with his mates.

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Thank you - it’s really not surprising that there is the odd clerical error; they then become embedded and repeated, and of course there probably aren’t that many cases where anyone is interested enough to look and query the official narrative. I got the CWGC to change the inscription (at least online - I haven’t had a chance yet to go to Le Touret to check the stone tablets) for one of my great-great-uncles, as they’d spelled his surname incorrectly - thankfully, they were very receptive, though his brother having the correct spelling certainly helped! And having easier access to the War Diaries and other information online is a Godsend - when one possible Battalion is in the line and the other at Church 50 miles away (as with the 1/8 & 2/8 RWR - sounds like you had a not dissimilar situation), it brings the possible/likely error quite sharply into focus.

I’m trying to get in touch with Pvt Bright’s family, to see if (a) they have any more personal details about his, (b) they had any inkling that he may be commemorated in the wrong place, and (c) whether - if that is in fact the case - they might wish to ask for his name to be added at Thiepval. At least his name is already commemorated - and I did visit the Loos Memorial this July, and found him there - but it would be preferable if he were named alongside those with whom he fought and died.

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306669 Ernest A Collins seems to have a similar path. Appears to be 1/8th but CWGC has 2/8th. Might be worth trying others to see if there’s a pattern, or any evidence of 2/8th. Service file on FindMyPast CWGC Mike

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Though Bright’s medal roll has 2/8th and Collins’ has 1/8th (images courtesy of ancestry,co,uk)

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Cpl 306093 Harry Foster another example. CWGC FindMyPast Medal Roll 2/8th

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Thanks - this is a snip of Pvt Bright’s Casualty Form B.103 (obtained courtesy FindMyPast.com) - as I read it, it clearly shows “proceeded on transfer to 1/8 RWR” on 20.7.1916 (which I take as being the “transfer out” entry for 2/8 - or 3/8, it’s not entirely clear - RWR), and “Joined unit” the following day (which doesn’t specify the unit, but I take as meaning the “transfer in” to 1/8 RWR corresponding to the previous day’s “transfer out”). This also matches the War Diary for 1/8 RWR, the entry for 21/7/1916 in which states simply, “Received a draft of 50 other ranks” (and another of 199 OR the next day).

The next entry on the B.103 is Pvt Bright being posted missing, 5 weeks later - no mention of any transfer back to 2/8 RWR; and is it plausible that 1/8 would release men back to their home units, given their need during the period in question?

The War Diary for 2/8 RWR does not mention any men missing on 27/8/1916 - they were parading at church that day. The last missing soldier was noted several days earlier.

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I have just had a (brief) response from a member of Pvt Bright’s family, who inherited his letters home - they had already also concluded that he was with the 1/8 RWR in the Somme sector when posted missing, likely killed by friendly fire as the Battalion advanced too quickly into the barrage zone.

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Have you gone through the rest of the men in the two battalions who died about the same date to see where they are buried or commemorated ?

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Not yet - haven’t had time!

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Ernest Edwards is on the roll for the 2/4th Lincolnshires on June 8th 1917 and they were coming out of the line in the Cambrai sector, while the 1/4th were being badly mauled at Lievin. CWGC are not for moving, but the circumstantial case for him being 1/4th is strong and his paper trail shows 2 soldiers effects entries for him, with the 2/4th record crossed out. They didn’t fancy scrubbing him off Thiepval having just refurbished it!

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Well if you get a list of “Thiepval” and Somme burials you probably have your answer.

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Well, “an” answer, at least! I have just done a crude count on CWGC of all RWR deaths on the date in question -

Ignoring the 2 UK burials, there are 81 names; looking at 1/8 and 2/8 Battalions only, there are 73.

Of the 73, there are very few identified burials - 4, all from 1/8 and either at Pozieres or Longueval.

Of the 69 others, all of the 1/8 names (59) are on the Thiepval Memorial; and all of the 2/8 names (10) are on the Loos Memorial.

For a Battalion that was (according to the War Diary) parading at church on the day, and had not reported any men missing for 3 days (4 ORs on 24 August, of whom 3 were accounted for in the following days), the 2/8 lost an awful lot of men on 27 August 1916.

Meanwhile, 1/8 RWR War Diary reported 1 officer & 72 ORs missing on that date, of whom only 59 ORs are named at Thiepval. The 10 2/8 RWR names on the Loos Memorial might account for this difference.

(yes, I am aware that the 1/8 War Diary provides casualty numbers which might cover two days, but searching the CWGC index for the days either side of 27 August only brings up 1 more 1/8 casualty, who died at Etaples, so he must have been wounded some days (at least) before the action on 27 August).

This perhaps suggests that the memorialisation process for the RWRs had a systemic issue, with transfers out of 2/8 (in Pvt Bright’s case, and possibly some/all of the others, though I haven’t looked, to 1/8 RWR) being overlooked?

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Here’s a parallel case from April 1918. It’s the West Yorkshire Regiment this time, and a regular battalion against a Territorial one rather than first and second line.

Pte Edward Thomas Bagnall, 20375 (formerly 18804, 9th South Staffords), was a Lichfield man. CWGC and Soldiers Died both put him in the 2nd Bn, died 25 April 1918, on the Pozières Memorial. His service record hasn’t survived, so there’s no B.103 to settle it, but three other records put him in the 1/5th:

  • the Victory and British War Medal roll gives his units as ‘9th S.Staffs.18804. / 2nd W.York.R.20375. / 1/5 W.York.R.20375.’, with ‘Presumed Dead 25/4/18’;
  • the effects register has ‘1/5 Bn W Yorks’, ‘25.4.18 on or since’;
  • the British Red Cross and Order of St John enquiry lists of 2 August and 20 November 1918 (Findmypast’s transcription) file him under Battalion 5, missing 25 April.

On 24 April the 2nd Bn was driven back at Villers-Bretonneux. On the 25th the 1/5th lost its front-line companies at Grande Bois, opposite Wytschaete. Following SommePhantom’s suggestion, I counted. Of the 59 West Yorks on the Pozières Memorial dated 24–26 April, 56 died on the 24th. Three are dated the 25th: Bagnall, 16/1212 Norman Randle and 267676 William Thornton. The 1/5th lost 128 men on the 25th. Of those, 106 are on the Tyne Cot Memorial and 22 are buried in Belgium. None is on Pozières.

Then I looked at the medal rolls for Randle and Thornton. Both end in the 2nd: Randle ‘12th W.Yks. / 1st W.Yks. / 2nd W.Yks.’, ‘Deceased 26/4/18’; Thornton ‘1/6 W.York.R.5916. / 1/6 W.York.R.267676. / 2nd W.York.R.267676.’, ‘Presumed Dead 25/4/18’. So the 2nd did lose men on the 25th, and the date alone settles nothing. But of the three men on Pozières with that date, Bagnall is the only one whose roll ends in the 1/5th. Thornton’s sheet, from the same York office, heads the column ‘In sequence Units and Corps previously served with’, which is how I read Bagnall’s: 2nd, then 1/5th.

I’d add one things to James’s point about the memorial following the recorded unit. The memorial isn’t independent evidence of where a man died. 2nd Bn plus 25 April sems to send a name to Pozières, whatever happened to the man. Second, it’s worth looking at the service numbers of the dead. Sixty of the 1/5th’s 128 have five-digit general-service numbers like his, and five of those are within a couple of thousand of 20375. By April 1918 a man posted in through the base depot was nothing unusual in that battalion.

Neither diary records a draft from the other: I’ve read the 2nd’s from December 1917 to April 1918 and the 1/5th’s from January to May 1918. The only drafts given an origin went to the 1/5th from the disbanded 8th and 18th Battalions in January and February. Every other draft of other ranks goes in unsourced, so a man coming through the base would leave no trace.

One question. Has anyone seen the original pages of the 1918 enquiry lists? I’d like to see how the battalion was entered, and I can find only the Findmypast transcription and a Fold3 index.